Remington No 1 Creedmoor

[Fogman01]

I am interested in finding an original Creedmoor rifle in shootable condition. The Sharps originals are out of my price range. I have a couple of Shiloh Sharps and love the BPCR shooting. Just getting into matches now. I was thinking of a Remington Rolling Block No1 Creedmoor in excellent condition I saw at a collectors website. Rolling blocks were used in the original Creedmoor matches. This one seems to have everything even the little wedge piece in the bottom of the pistol grip and the original sights. But I have looked at past auctions of Julia's and some other places and it would appear that $6900 is a bit high for this model. What caliber is "44S". Looking at other No 1's it appears to mean 44-77. But maybe 44-90???? Bottle neck - straight?
And what would be a range for the price of Remington rolling block No 1 Creedmoor?

Thanks for any help.

[Don McDowell]

44s is most likely the 44-90 st. Make cases for it by running 45-90's into the 44 size die. Great cartridge.

[desert deuce]

Couple of things:

First - is it really an "ORIGINAL" #1 Remington Creedmoor, or is the seller simply claiming it to be one, AND, more importantly, are you qualified to tell the difference?

Second - there seems to be a downward trend in selling prices for this class of collectable rifle for the past several years. That does not mean the sellers are reducing the asking price. If it is a really good deal it will have or would have sold very quickly.

Third - is the rifle worth the actual price to you the buyer.

[Fogman01]

OK That's easy enough. The other Creedmoor I saw, the seller states it is 44-77 Sharps Straight. It is stamped with a 44 S on the barrel also. If I ended up with that caliber what would I use? I have the 44-77 BN I am shooting in another rifle. And a 45-70.

[Kurt]

A while back I was looking for a Hepburn rifle used for the Creedmoor matches and we have a collectors show near Chicago yearly and the Auction house down Rock island ILL. and I have seen several Hepburns and roller target rifles used for the matches and one thing they had in common was a heal sight base. Some where stamped .44 S and I was told that was the .44 Special it is a bottle necked round shorter then the .44-2-5/8 BN Sharps.
The .44-100 was mostly used in the Hepburns and the Remington #3 long range creedmoor it used the 2-6/10 straight case, the .44-90 Rem straight also used a 2 6/10 case.
If the chamber was a .44-90 Special I don't know of any parent brass one could use to make this round. It is wider at the base then a .44-75 or the .44-90-2 5/8 Sharps case.
Zack is right about the value falling especially for the Remingtons. I have a friend that is a Remington collector and he has a large selection of the rollers and Hepburns and he told me that the value is dropping.

[desert deuce]

The 44 S stamped on the bottom of the barrel in front of the forearm designates a 44-77 Remington.

I am not familiar with a 44-77 bottleneck. There was a 44-90 bottleneck from that period but it is quite another matter and I don't think the rifle would be marked 44 S

Jamison/Captec makes brass for the 44-77 and fine brass it is too.

Don't expect an original chamber to be anything like a modern one for that cartridge. Cast the chamber and slug the bore before you buy any components.

We have an original #1 sporting rifle in that caliber and getting it to shoot satisfactorily was a journey, not quite a trail of tears though.

[Fogman01]

Good info from all. Thanks
I shoot a 45-100 ( 2.6 case) in an Axtell recreation of the Sharps 1877 No 1 Creedmoor Overbaugh (also looks identical to Elmer Kieth's 1877 45-120). So I am guessing the same would apply with the 44-100 - use the .44 sizing die to make 44-100 from 45-100 if I found one in that caliber. I was looking for an original Creedmoor rifle that was somewhat affordable. My other option is to have Shiloh make a recreation of a Sharps 1874 Long Range No 2 in 45-100 with the pistol grip checkering and 1/2 Oct barrel, everything just like two originals I have seen on the auctions for a whole lot of money. I know that's not Creedmoor style per se, but it would be different from my other rifles as would the Rolling Block. A lower priced original RB that would be not that much more than a Shiloh recreation might be doable. The two rifles that I have seen on GI are both offered by dealers in old arms not by an individual seller.

[desert deuce]

Have an original 1874 Sharps Military Musket in 45-110, we have fired it once. Recoil is brutal. Anything in 45-100 at less than ten pounds would be unpleasant to shoot if loaded to potential.

It all depends on what you intend to do with the rifle. To hang it on the wall and look at it, well, it really doesn't matter whether or not it kicks you flat every time you pull the trigger.

If you intend to shoot it more than once or twice a month then think about a 45-90 as close to 15 pounds as you can get it. Develop a load and take up Black Powder Target Rifle Competition. That is where you will learn to shoot it well.

[Caprock]

If you're trying to buy a Creedmoor then you need Marcots book on Sporting Rifles as a reference guide. Caliber markings vary but in general a 44 denotes 44-77. Sometimes a 44 S denotes 44-77 but designed to shoot the special 90 grain load in the same case or it could be the 44-90 2 7/16 BN. If someone tells you 44S stands for 44 Straight then he likely doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. The 44-100 straight and bottleneck versions can be marked in a variety of ways and sometimes the same way. This is all in the section on Number One Sporting calibers that has a table of stampings.

The bottom line here is that unless you do a chamber cast the caliber is anyones guess unless you buy from someone who is very knowledgable about the rifle he owns.. Remington caliber markings weren't exact plus people changed barrels and had reamers back then you know.

[Fogman01]

Caprock thanks for that info. I will get the book and learn a some more before I buy anything. Sounds like most sellers are content to just guess at the caliber. I will have a chamber cast done before I buy anything. I plan to shoot any rifle I get and I am working on BPTR but the nearest 1000 yd range is pretty far away. In the mean time I have a 45-70 Shiloh Sharps with a scope that I shoot silhouette with at a 500 yd range that is closer. But I also want to use a rifle with a tang sight to compete with too. The recoil on my 45-110 and 45-100 is not bad with a detachable recoil pad... not enough to make me "flinchy" or sore afterwards. Now my friend's 50-140 C Sharps is a different story!