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+---- Thread: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. (/thread-3010.html)
Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Distant Thunder - 06-19-2020
I got a call from Shiloh today, they will be shipping my rebarreled 1874 on Monday the 22nd. That's the short story. This project actually began a year ago when I became determined to rebarrel my Shiloh .45-70, that was not really being used much, to .44-77, a cartridge that has been of interest to me for at least 16 years.
I began to research what would be the best way to get this rifle set up for use as a silhouette, mid-range and long range target rifle. I decided that what I really wanted to do was develop accurate loads using Shiloh's standard grease groove chamber with a 2-diameter paper patch bullet. The main reasons I decided to go this way was 1) I believe that the standard GG chamber that Shiloh offers is one of the best for the use of both bore diameter or 2-diameter paper patch bullets and 2) I believed that having Shiloh do the work would be the easiest way to get to shoot PPB in a .44-77 with a very good probability of having the accuracy I need to compete in those kind of matches.
The rifle started life as a business rifle built in the first year Kirk Bryan at Shiloh. It had a 26 inch heavy round barrel chambered for the .45-70, military buttplate and standard wood. The new barrel will be a 30 inch heavy octagon in .44-77. Everything else will be unchanged. I ultimately went with a Krieger 17-twist barrel which would give me a wider selection of bullets to work with than the 19-twist that Shiloh offers. That is an important consideration for Creedmoor matches at 800, 900 and 1000 yards where heavier bullets have an edge.
Once the rifle arrives, which should be the 24th, I have to get it set up with sights and scope mounts (for silhouette & load development) and begin the process of getting all the brass I've acquired over the past year fire formed and ready for load development.
Once I have that all done and begin the actual load development I will continue this thread and attempt to lay out the process as I go through in developing paper patch loads for anyone who might be interested in working with paper patch bullets in their .44-77 or any other cartridge in a BPCR. I don't think the process will be much different base on the cartridge used. The .44-77 will be different from say the .45s in that it is a bottle neck, but everything regrading the bullets and load development should be pretty much the same.
This for all intents and purposes this is my first bottle neck cartridge, so there will be that learning curve too. The main goal is to show how I go about developing PP target loads for my rifles and this one will be totally from scratch. It appears I will be using some grease groove bullets for fireforming thge brass, but those are the only GG bullets this rifle will ever see, I HOPE! I'll use them because I kept the molds from another project many years ago even though that rifle got repurposed a few years back. I just couldn't see using good paper patch bullets for fireforming when I have plenty of GG bullets that aren't good for much else.
So give me some time to get it ready for this endeavor. Then I'll start posting what I'll be working with for paper patch bullets and loads as I go through my development. This could well take me into next year before I get it where I want to be and there is the outside chance that this rifle won't take a liking to anything I feed it when wrapped in paper, but I am not too worried about that.
I will of course welcome any suggestions and advise from those who want to help. Just as I did when I was trying to figure what barrel length and twist rate to go with. Also if you have questions, if I'm unclear about any of what I do or how I do it, please ask.
I had this barrel put on my rifle because I really want to shoot paper patch bullets in a .44-77. I also want to use this opportunity to encourage other to shoot paper patch bullets and I believe the 2-diameter designs now available are an excellent choice with a high likelihood of success for other shooters who want to try.
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Don McDowell - 06-19-2020
For, my experience with the cartridge best results come when the first wad is level with or just slightly above the base of the neck.
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Distant Thunder - 06-19-2020
Don,
Yes, we talked about the seating depth some earlier and I had noted the bullets were often seated to about there. That's different from what I usually do and is all part of what I have to learn. I do seat my paper patch bullets fairly deep in my .50-70 and that little cartridge shoots well that way. I plan to start at about .250 to .300 in the case and see how that goes. This is why I said it could take a bit of time to work to the best my rifle can give. I really appreciate your input on this project, it will save a lot of time I'm sure.
I'm really looking forward to working with this cartridge!
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Don McDowell - 06-20-2020
I think load work up with accuracy will go faster than you think
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Don McDowell - 06-20-2020
Biggest problem, you'll likely hit is the case capacity between new and fire formed cases. The slope shouldered things you load the first time aren't going to look like the things that come out of the chamber. You'll want to go with a fairly accurate load probably around 75 gr. of 1/2 and then 2 maybe 3 grains more in the fired cases.
[attachment=1747]
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Distant Thunder - 06-20-2020
That's right, you go from the .22 Hornet* to the .22 K-Hornet in one firing!
*Another really cool cartridge! And one of my all time favorites!
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Don McDowell - 06-20-2020
30-30 to 30-30ai, was what I thought when I fired that first round. LOL
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Distant Thunder - 06-20-2020
So it's a .44-77 AI!
Now that my rifle is about to be shipped the weather forecast is for rain and rain mixed with rain for as far as the eye can see! Why am I not surprised!
So I'll be casting bullets and looking at .44-77 cases trying imagine how loads are going to look as I listen to the rain on the roof all weekend. Hopefully there is a break in the rain after Wednesday.
I am a bit concerned about the idea of the bullet and wad(s) seated to the depth of the neck/shoulder junction and here's why.
I am thinking I'll do my fireforming and initial test loads with Goex 2F. I have a bunch of this powder and it has been a good performer in my other cartridges. With the understanding that the bottleneck cases do better with minimum compression I decided to see just how much powder comes up just into the neck when drop tubed.
I used some of the Jamison brass I bought that has been fireformed by the previous owner. I do not know anything about the rifle or chamber that they were fireformed in and there maybe some change when fired in my Shiloh, but here is what I got with two powders.
Goex 2F took only 66.0 grains.
My current lot of 1 1/2 Swiss took 73.0 grains.
I would probably get just over 1200 fps with 73 grains of Swiss 1 1/2. The 66 grains of 2F Goex would likely be about 1140 fps with a tailwind if I pulled the trigger real hard and was lucky. That's ok for silhouette and maybe mid-range, but it's not going to cut it at 1000 yards. This situation concerns me. I would really like to get a lot closer to 1300 fps, at least 1280 fps.
At Lodi they require a minimum of 1215 fps for .44 caliber. I might just make that velocity with 73 grains or not! I would need to find a way to get 80 grains of 1 1/2 in that big .44 case to put my mind at ease.
So once again I find myself just playing with numbers and no real idea what I will actually be able to do with this rifle. In another week I should be able to start playing with actual loads and bullets and things will probably start looking better, I hope.
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Don McDowell - 06-20-2020
I would guess that charge of Swiss to be much closer to 1300.
74 gr of KIK 2f would kick a 480 gr bullet at 1225, and Cartridge would do about the same. I upped the charge of KIK to 77 just to be sure to have plenty of room over the velocity requirements to shoot the nationals at the Whittington. Back then they actually chronographed every rifle with loads randomly selected out of you ammunition, during weigh in. Going to OE erased velocity concerns, and fouling problems.
Keep in mind the velocity coming from that bottle neck will be a bit higher due to all that powder gas being forced down thru the funnel shaped case mouth.
If that brass was fired in a C Sharps chamber you will have to size the base of the case down quite a bit to get it to chamber.
RE: Development of PP loads for the .44-77. - Distant Thunder - 06-20-2020
This why playing with numbers is a good way to pass the time and absolutely worthless for actual load development! Still, I'm enjoying it because it is part of the journey. I'm probably not going to sleep a wink Tuesday night!!! I'll be sitting in the recliner by the front window all day waiting for the big brown truck to show! Probably fall asleep before it does and wife will have to knock me upside the head to bring me around. I hope I can remember how to sign my name! This waiting stuff is the hardest part.
Anyway, yea the closest to a bottleneck I've work with is a .40-65 and I don't have any thing else to compare it to. So I really don't know what the bottleneck effect will be. So all I can do is compare it to what I get out of my .45-70 and .45-90. Yet another thing to learn!
The one and only time I made it to the Nationals, back '07 or '08, they chronographed 3 of my cartridges from my .45-90. That was my very effective grease groove bullet over 85 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and it clocked 1355 fps. Which was exactly the same as that load clocked at the world match at Lodi back then. That was a good load, but I had to keep a close eye out for leading! Paper patching fixed that problem completely.
In my .45-70 83 grains of Swiss goes out at 1290-ish +or- a couple. So that's my frame of reference and all I have to go by.
I do have a bit of KIK 2F. No OE yet, but it's on the list.
So for my next numbers game I drop tubed 80 grains of my Swiss into a case that was fireformed in Kurt's Shiloh and that came up to .340" from the case mouth. Compressing that with a .060 wad looks pretty reasonable. 77 or 78 grains would make me pretty happy and put closer me to my 1300 fps goal. And it is just a goal, I know 1250 will get a good shooter to the top, but I need all the help I can get.
So if I end up with my bullets seated about 3/8" into the case and just a little compression that would be pretty close to what some of the original loads I've seen looked like seating depth wise. The ODG did load that case with 90 grains for Creedmoor in the early days. How did they do that?