.44-77 and paper patch?

[beltfed]

OH, Don,The far left bullet in your "selection" sure looks like the Lyman Snover 410663
at just under 1.4" long. …..?
Nice bullets...
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

http://historicshooting.com/mybb/attachm...p?aid=1433
Here is Kurt's pic of chamber casts on the "Eric J" thread . Kurt mentions the top pic is
the Std Shiloh chamber.
This gives a good idea of the Chambers.
Second from top seems to be the 5 degree off Outside neck dia
transitioning to the leade of , I think 1.5 degrees.
Arnie

[Kurt]

Arnie.
Go back to post 20 I have a drawing my new .44-77 reamer in the works. Look at the chamber end (case stop) I have a 5 degree that goes to the bottom of the groove with out a 1.5 degree extending into the throat, 5 degree/1.5 degree compound if that 1.5 was added. The 7 degree is of Orville Loomers design, he called it the original Sharps chamber but of all the Sharps chamber casts I have and looked at they were all at least 3 or 3.5 degree till the later Borchardt's came about and they were more like the Brownings now use.
I guess you could call the 5 or 7 degree as a longer free bore but but I call it a tapered throat.
I have converted most of my rifles from the 45 degree to 4 and 5 degrees because of all the recovered bullets I have looked at shot with a 45 degree chamber end have lead shaved off from what was in the case as it passed over the 45 degree and it ended the lead rings and paper rings slowing the lead smears into the throat when using a GG bullet. The 45 degree id not a friendly wall shooting lead bullets. It started showing up when the .30-40 Krag came about using the cordite and smokeless powder and guilted bullets. But I might be wrong in my findings.

[Kurt]

Arnie those are casts of my two .44-90 bn Shiloh's I had a reamer made with the 5 degree/1.5 compound for the second rifle.mThere is a difference how the 5 degree shoots after several rounds fired.

[Kurt]

Arnie here is an example what that 45 degree does to a bullet.
I deep seated these bullets to see just how fay that 45 diggs into the shank. Bullets 2-8 are 40's and the single bullet is a .45-90. Note the groove on the ogive, that is a paper ring impression. I used the blow tube for all of these bullets so I won't wipe out the paper rings.
I have seen bullets stripped from the case mouth all the way down to the base. All of this convinced me to do away with the 45 degree chamber end and go with the ODG's lead bullet chambers.

       

[Don McDowell]

OH, Don,The far left bullet in your "selection" sure looks like the Lyman Snover 410663
at just under 1.4" long. …..?
Nice bullets...
beltfed/arnie

That is the 480 gr money bullet for the 44's.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I haven't recovered near the number of bullets you have, but I have recovered a few from both my .45-70 and my .40-65 and I've never seen any evidence of the 45* end stop digging into the bullet like that!

I did have trouble with paper rings in my .40-65 (freebored gg chamber) in part due to brass being .020 - .025'' short. I did two things, I weeded out the short brass and I set the bullets very, very shallow. That got rid of the paper rings and improved the accuracy.

When I first started having success with pp in my standard chambered Shiloh .45-90 I found the shallower I seated my bullets the better it shot. I have carried that lesson with me as I developed loads for my .45-70 (Danielson pp chamber w/ 45*) and my .40-65. I always stress the importance of shallow seating shallow with bore diameter ppb to everyone trying shoot ppb in any chamber. When I say shallow, I mean SHALLOW, like .090 max to .075" is even better. It has work so well for me and I think you get past some of these kind of problems.

Seating a bore diameter paper patch bullet deep like a gg bullet would be is only going to cause problems because there are too many places for the bullet to upset into before it starts to move down the bore and most of them are not good.

It seems to me that a bullet will still upset into any empty space ahead of the case mouth and even more so if you have a long shallow angle starting from the case O.D. and running out ahead of the case. It may smear the upset part more smoothly when it's a shallow angle but the empty space will still be filled with the upset bullet. I have no idea what the best way to cut a chamber is, but having more empty space for the bullet to upset into doesn't seem right.

In a perfect world there would be NO gap between the end of the case and the lead angle into the rifling, but I don't think such a chamber can be cut.

There is a lot of good information coming to light here, but I'll be darned if I know what's best. I DO know what has worked for me so far and that will be hard to let go of.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

Of those bullets I really like the one on the left and the 3rd from the left, but they would have to be paper patch!

[Don McDowell]

The left bullet is the money bullet, the 3rd from the left is the original Postel from Brooks. Really like that profile, and am considering having him build me a 44 dual diameter fixed length bullet with that nose probably at 1.35 and 436 dia. , and a 45 dd at 1.4 and .450. But the next to last one is the BACO 434470 and the 44-90 st is shooting that one so very well, so the 44 dd may have to wait until the #1 I'm comptemplating ordering gets closer. And just to complicate things again my 77 in 45-90 should be off the floor and on the rack about any time now, so once again my focus will jump to the 45-90 for a while.

[Distant Thunder]

Arnie,

Thank you for linking to those two chamber casts that Kurt posted. Those two side by side show exactly what the difference is when a shallow taper comes from the outside of the case mouth or when there is a 45* chamber stop.

I understand the problems with the 45*, but it does work and for me it has worked well. I confess that I don't understand how the long, shallow angle coming from the OUTSIDE of the case mouth works. It just seems there is a large area of empty space right in front of the case. Someone help me understand this?