Powder Compression

[Klaus]

Hi Gents,

I read some books about Black Powder Cartridge reloading and got some experiences by my own. But I feel sometimes slipped back on the beginning of it all !
Experienced Hunters and Target Shooters load their 45-70 with a full 70grs charge and a .520 Gov.Bullet. I load between 63 and 70 grs for myselfe but >
Mike Venturino in his famous Book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West told about of 60 grs. by different kinds of Powder like Goex,Swiss e.g ( reference charges) with the .520 grs Bullet.
Paul Matthews told in his Books that the Powder should be compessed by “ Drop Tubing ” . It should be very important that the Powderkernels are not crushed althought he mentioned in the same Book that Government Loads are compressed to a solid mass.
opposide to this original Sharps loading advises told the same like Paul namely to fill the Powder with a 30 inch Drop Tube slowly in and put a Paperwad on top and seat the Bullet gently on the Powder!

Yesterday I discharge one of my Cartridges and found a solid mass I could remove the Powder by scratchin out with a screwdriver but it did not trickle out of the case as mentioned in the Sharps Catalog advise. My charge is 63 grs of KIK FFF pured in with a Drop Tube

A Friend of mine use a full load with 100 grs Swiss 1 1/5 corked with Milkcarton / Greasecookie/ Wad and a 540 grs Bullet. in his 45 – 100 Sharps the Powder is really compressed to maximum 0.5 inch or more but he shoots with very good results !

What is the truth?

When it is correct that a 60grs. charge will have got the same good result in a given Rifle and have the capability to shoot through a Buffalo and hold a 2 ½ inch group or less on a papertarget at 100 yards or toppel a Ram on 547 yards where shall be the advantage to use a full charge with 70 grs?

Have you got a solution

Klaus

[Dave Roelle]

Hi Klaus:

It seems that compression is as important to a "clean burn" and so better fouling control than most other variables and certainly different powders perform much differently with the same degree of compression (at least in my experience-which is minimal relative to other members here)

I personally am still seeking a "low 60's grain load" that will provide the same accuracy as the current 74 grain load that my rifle seems to like----------------the search and learning continues ---------slowly

Dave

[Klaus]

Hi Klaus:

It seems that compression is as important to a "clean burn" and so better fouling control than most other variables and certainly different powders perform much differently with the same degree of compression (at least in my experience-which is minimal relative to other members here)

I personally am still seeking a "low 60's grain load" that will provide the same accuracy as the current 74 grain load that my rifle seems to like----------------the search and learning continues ---------slowly

Dave

Morning Dave,

thx for your reply

i have had some good results with 61 to 62 grs. and Goex FFg and the German Brand of WANO / Grafs Hunting Powder Nr. 1
Due to my humble opinion a charge about 61 or 62 grs with less compression will not burn "cleaner" than a load with 68 grs. and stronger compression
with the correct Lube and blow tubing i will be able to make 40 or more shoots without losing accuracy.
But pls note my range it limited to 100 m

Klaus

[Don McDowell]

Klaus I think you're actually asking two questions.
Yes you might be able to get by with a 60 gr charge for accuracy, but depending on the bullet and the twist rate of the rifle, that bullet might very well loose stability at 3-400 yds due to the loss of velocity and the slowing of the spin. (think of a bullet as a childs toy top, spinning fast it stands up nicely, when it starts to slow down it starts wobbling and falls in no predictable pattern)
And then there's the fouling issue, many times a lower charge like the 60 gr charge will foul excessively due to the lower pressure and heat generated by that charge.
For the most part if you can compress enough powder into the case and not bulge the case head and get accuracy you're in good shape, it won't matter if the powder is a solid cake or not unless for some reason you decide to pull the bullets and recharge the case.....

[Klaus]

Hi Don, thx for your explanation.
i will arrange a new testphase for me and report about the result

Klaus

[Lumpy Grits]

Hi Don, thx for your explanation.
i will arrange a new testphase for me and report about the result

Klaus

Start at 65 gn and work your way up in 1 gn steps.
FWIW" I load 70 grn, 3F Goex in my .45-70 with a Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet.
Gary

[Klaus]

Last Saturday i went to my Range and try to get some successful shots with Rought and Ready Rear and Penny Front



Weather was Cloudy and a bit Rainy , Temperature 20 C / 68F
Distance : 100m
10 Shots/ Blowtubing after each shot
My first Load :
68 grs KIK FFFg / 0.2 Compression / Milkcarton
OFW / Coffeefilter
Large Pistol Primers
.520grs Gov.Bullet
Targetpicture / Bucket measured 16,5 cm x 12 cm / 6.5 by 4.72 inch
Lube: Emmerts




Second Load
5 Shots/ Blowtubing after each shot
63 grs.KIK FFFg/0.05 Compression/ Milkcarton
Large Pistol Primers
.520 Gov Bullet
Targetpictures / Bucket measured 6x5 cm /2.36 by 1.97 inch




for me it appears that a minor powder charge or coarser powder kernel like FG Grade with less velocity are more accurate than FFFG in my Rifle on given 100 Distance.

Example :




Maybe this results will change dramatically on longer ranges ?

has anyone here made ​​of similar experiences

Klaus

[Lumpy Grits]

HI Klaus, what is the rate of twist(ROT)in your barrel?
Try a thin paper wad under the powder at the bottom of the case also.
Your 63 gn 3F load was a good round group. More so than the others.
Try 64 & 65 grain 3F loads maybe.
How much neck tension are you using?
Gary

[Klaus]

Hello Gary.
it`s a regular Pedersoli Barrel with 1-18 Twist

I use Coffeefilter Pad as Over Flashole Wad but could not found any advantage for me.

But i feel that charges up tp 65 grains gives me more precision as charges above this powderweight

if you have a look on the bottom pic there i had use 65 grs KIK FG and the groups are much closer as with 68 grs of KIK FFFG
But pls mentioned i always shot on 100m only

I read in serval professional literature that a given close targetresult on a shorther distance can be deteriorate on greater distance dramatically.

Due to the lack of Ranges above 100m it will be very hard to find a successful Load wich will be able to give accuracy i need for 300m or more.

Finaly it will be the truth that i go with the given load and try my luck at the upcomming competition in September

Klaus

[Klaus]

HI Klaus, what is the rate of twist(ROT)in your barrel?
Try a thin paper wad under the powder at the bottom of the case also.
Your 63 gn 3F load was a good round group. More so than the others.
Try 64 & 65 grain 3F loads maybe.
How much neck tension are you using?
Gary

sorry to forget to answer about "nec tension"

try to do little as possibile of nec tension i use a Lyman Nec Sizer and turn them out so far that only 0,5 inch of the case mouth is affected. After this i flare with a Lyman M Die tool.
Bullet can be set by hand to the bottom GG and than pushed down with liminal drag in my Rock Chucker Press with no Crimp


Klaus