Strange Day Good Day

[Kurt]

You don't have to buy a bullet puller you already have the best one if you have a loading press. Just take the die out of the press and run the loaded round through the hole and use a wire stripper and grip the bullet and lower the ram. It works better then any puller you can buy.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt has definitely got that right. The other thing that hurts is that a set trigger can form bad habits. Rather than a slow buildup of pressure you can get into the habit of quickly snapping the trigger which will cause you to pull the gun off center a bit. With the long barrel time of these bullets it doesn't take much to pull a shot.

I think I was guilty of both of these problems in the first year I shot these rifles. I still have some of the old targets and they were stinkers :-)

The Crossno liner is a great way to perfect your hold I think. I'm just starting to use mine as a way to double my prone round count. With quality ammunition it'll shoot very well so can show even minor problems.

Chris.

[laowho]

Will do Old Jim. Haven't heard of that Chris. My takeaway so far is to work on reacquiring the target as quickly/smoothly as possible after the shot. And mechanically, still workin on the grip to go from set to pull triggers w/o movin off. And prone...there's a lot for me to learn there. Gonna go check out the Crossno. And thx Kurt...sounds a lil better than bangin a kinetic puller with BP. Thanks All

Say Guys, Spotting scope arrives today, and figured out how to properly make the splatter targets (oil-based spray paint over water-based neon colors). Gonna prepare my loads for proper laddering. Any reason to not load/compress for the lands as my starting point? I know this may change to a small jump, but all things bein equal rite now--Am I wrong to think that, if you can seat to the lands, there's some advantage if you can keep it there?

[Old Jim]

Loading for my most accurate groupings, I found that the GG bullets needed to engrave the rifling around 0.020-30 of the first driving band. When I Loaded them much longer, fouling issues came into play on days when I didn't watch my blow-tube actions. If wiping with damp patches I still needed to engrave.

There is something to be said about resizing cases, if you do that. Some folks don't resize at all. I've done it both ways.

Paper-patching is indeed another story.

[laowho]

Thank you Jim,

I began loading for the lands (hadn't earlier--had a 1/16th" jump) and I'm not nearly as deep--just have the 1st band firmly on the lands so doubt they're engraving...do you cam these in to get that kind of engraving? I'll load the others w/ a bit more COAL, but otherwise dunno how I'd chamber them. As for resizing the brass, I have a decent re-sizer but so far my gage hasn't shown any distension/stretching. (Unless yer talkin about stretch re-sizing, in wh/ case I doubt I'm ready for that.) But I'm glad to at least be hitting the lands now or even a bit more. Seemed a better place to start ladder testing loads. Cheers, Doug

[bruce moulds]

doug,
any testing method relies on the ability to aim accurately.
if you are using a ring foresight, this means using a ring which appears to have a hole 3x the diameter of the aiming mark.
i.e. there is an amount of white each side of the aiming mark equal to the diameter of the aiming mark.
200 yds should be far enough away to spread out the ladder meaningfully when doing an audette ladder test with a bpcr.
however there are issues which might give tricky results with an audette ladder with a bpcr.
we do not have free floating barrels like fclass rifles do, and our barrels rest on the sticks.
the audette method relies on vert as a measure of accuracy, and the above can induce vert.
the audette method also relies on 1 shot per charge, so if 1 shot has vert, the results are meaningless.
the ocw method also relies on vert, but it also requires 3 shot groups.
taking the centres of the groups is probably more statistically valid than relying on 1 shot.
also trends in group size can be an aid in gauging a load. if 1 group is way better than those each side of it, that is not a trend.
I am sure that there are nodes in our rifles. I have seen this at 990 yards when increasing charges started to shoot 10 shot groups lower than previous.
however this could have been bullets having reduced velocity due to increasing compression,
no chronograph, so don't know!
which raises another point re incremental testing with bpcr.
ladder testing and charge weight testing with smokeless has only one variable, namely charge weight.
we have to include 2 variables at once, the minute we start compressing.
one variable at a time is best, but we are not afforded that luxury.
there are guys on 6br that claim to do a ladder or other incremental test, then fine tune with seating depth successfully.
this is for want of a better term, a load of crock.
audette himself said that if you change one thing, e.g. seating depth, you need to run the whole test again.
keep safe,
bruce.

[laowho]

Exactly Bruce. First off, as Kurt recommended in another thread, I went with batches of 5 rather than one. I'm droppin to 3 so that I can accommodate 1/2 gr increments. Secondly, I wasn't sure what the compression was doing here. Thirdly, I just couldn't figure on goin to later seating adjustments just to begin all over again, and yeah, I've read the papers available from Audette.

So my plan is this, based upon what I know so far--that my Saeco 645 @ 485 gr really likes the Swiss 1.5F @ 68 gr with a backset of 1/16th" I'm beginning in earnest now with the spotting scope @ 200 yds and with the bullet engaging the rifling (no more jump), and with the added pressures (less so for our caliber, but still) figured I'd start some "laddering" w/ 3 shot groups @ 66/66.5/67/67.5 and 68. I'm also feeling and listening for that sweet spot we get sometimes. Hope this makes sense. Figured Audette and Newberry were just givin us (the rifle's) window for charge measure variations that can happen when throwing (the vert plateau), and that barrel harmonics (nodes, even the shockwave muzzle expansion/contraction of Young) are already in that mix w/o the need for further teasing out. Cheers, Doug

[Old Jim]

Doug,

When I say engraving I speak of very slight rifling marks showing on the front edge of the 1st driving band nearest the nose of the bullet. None of my bullets show any marks on the nose of the bullet. If the marks are equally spaced around the 1st band, the bullet should be centered in the bore of the rifling. Just to be clear on that.

Theres lots of good advice in the posts shown on this series of replys.

Jim

[Kurt]

Exactly Bruce. First off, as Kurt recommended in another thread, I went with batches of 5 rather than one. I'm droppin to 3 so that I can accommodate 1/2 gr increments. Secondly, I wasn't sure what the compression was doing here. Thirdly, I just couldn't figure on goin to later seating adjustments just to begin all over again, and yeah, I've read the papers available from Audette.

So my plan is this, based upon what I know so far--that my Saeco 645 @ 485 gr really likes the Swiss 1.5F @ 68 gr with a backset of 1/16th" I'm beginning in earnest now with the spotting scope @ 200 yds and with the bullet engaging the rifling (no more jump), and with the added pressures (less so for our caliber, but still) figured I'd start some "laddering" w/ 3 shot groups @ 66/66.5/67/67.5 and 68. I'm also feeling and listening for that sweet spot we get sometimes. Hope this makes sense. Figured Audette and Newberry were just givin us (the rifle's) window for charge measure variations that can happen when throwing (the vert plateau), and that barrel harmonics (nodes, even the shockwave muzzle expansion/contraction of Young) are already in that mix w/o the need for further teasing out. Cheers, Doug

Doug.

I said I take three shot groups with one grain increments.

Kurt

[laowho]

Ahh...TY Jim. Good. Sorry I misunderstood. Still tryin to get everything straight. Yeah, this place is pretty unreal. Gonna start my loads now--not at 1/2 gr increments but at 1 gr--from 66 thru 69. Too bad about our coming blizzard but I mite manage to get out Sunday. Just won't be shooting prone I bet. Cheers, Doug