Getting most in 40-65 load

[Martini2]

Packing it all in 40-65
Recently there has been very good exchange on loading 40-65s with BP. Of course, all 40-65s are not alike. Some using PP slugs can seat much further into bore to gain powder room. My choice for now is greaser Lyman# 410655. As cast they are 422 grs. and 1.307” length. Loading fired Starline brass it has been difficult to charge 59 grs of GEOX FF with compression so cartridge O.L. fits in chamber with bullet touching in throat. So far using about 0.300” powder compression under 0.060” Circle wad ended up with first lube groove showing. That is 2.805” over all cartridge length. These rounds chamber with thumb pressure. However, the bore fouling has been my nemesis. It was found adding a 0.060” felt/wax wad and use of blow tube cleared most of the fouling between shots. However, accuracy is not up to expectations and scores proved so. A search through cartridge diagrams lead to internals of humble 30-30 WCF sizing die. Note in attached sample drawing the diameters of 30-30 case body make a pretty good taper sizing die for 40 cal. Bullet. A Hornady die was set up in press with the stem that comes with Lee 0.410” push threw bullet sizing die. By adjustment the 410655s were pressed up into the 30-30 sizing die (with stem removed of course). A simple knock out tool was made of brass to tap the bullets lightly back out after taper sizing. The #410655 as cast has all driving bands same diameter (0.410) but after taper treatment the first band is now 0.405” and 2nd band is 0.408” the base is left at 0.410”. The process must be controlled so the bullet nose does not go up against the 30-30 shoulder so the bore riding portion of 410655 is unchanged. Health issue has me bound to loading room at present. The good news is that employing the above technique has allowed loading Don’s favorite recipe of 60 gr OE FF with 0.030” card and SPG lube in the grooves at over all cartridge length of 2.917”. Since THE LOAD was posted be “Himself” it is expected that a next firing session the impacts will form one ragged hole in target ?

[Don McDowell]

The load I recommend works in 3 separate rifles that I own. It has worked for a couple of other folks as well.

[Hiwall55]

I think it all depends on the bullet you are shooting. My 40/65's with the 395 grain creedmoor take 57 grains of Swiss but with the BACO 400 grain Kidwell bullet they like 64 grains of Swiss with about .100 compression.
Bill

[Martini2]

The load I recommend works in 3 separate rifles that I own. It has worked for a couple of other folks as well.

Don, I respect the enormous amount of time you have invested on loads (have researched the archives:-) and therefore your input is measuring stick here. The point was that in order to pack 60 gr. OE FF and the 410655 in particular some thing had to give in order to close the breech of this Pedi Sharps. Others mileage etc. I.E. I'm counting on THE LOAD to be base when trying the variations of compression, lubes and voodoo we love so much. I digress, some additional info FWIW is Star Line brass trimmed to uniform 2.110". In order to hold the tapered bullets the cases were run thru Lyman #7315055 40-65, 40-70SS neck sizing die. then expanded in M die with 0.480 stem. They were primed with CCI Br2s. Best

[Martini2]

The load I recommend works in 3 separate rifles that I own. It has worked for a couple of other folks as well.

Don, I respect the enormous amount of time you have invested on loads (have researched the archives:-) and therefore your input is measuring stick here. The point was that in order to pack 60 gr. OE FF and the 410655 in particular some thing had to give in order to close the breech of this Pedi Sharps. Others mileage etc. I.E. I'm counting on THE LOAD to be base when trying the variations of compression, lubes and voodoo we love so much. I digress, some additional info FWIW is Star Line brass trimmed to uniform 2.110". In order to hold the tapered bullets the cases were run thru Lyman #7315055 40-65, 40-70SS neck sizing die. then expanded in M die with 0.408 stem. They were primed with CCI Br2s. Best

[Martini2]

Field Report 10/14/17. I was finally able to get “Lucy” the Pedi-74 Sharps/ 40-65 out to range. We serially went through 35 rounds of BP loads. There actually were 4 different test samples. All loads were filled with recently found Ol’ Eynsford powder, some 2FF and some 1 ½ F employed. A big improvement has been the taper sizing of Lyman 410655s in 30-30 WCF sizing die. A partial insertion shrinks the 1st and 2nd driving bands so bullet seats 1/8 inch further out into bore. Thus we were able to put 60grs. OE 2 FF under the 422 gr #410655 with circle wad & lubed with SPG. The 5 rounds in this small sample landed in group of about 4 inches ;-) Range was at 200 yds. All of days shooting was at 200 and was confined on 12” dia. Target center. A careful plotting of each round allowed locating different groupings. Ideally one would like them all in same hole. But we were experimenting with different bore treatments at same time. The greatest number of rounds (20) was loaded with card over powder and then a 1/16th wax soaked felt wad topped by 0.015” card next to bullet. It was hoped to get ideal condition of multiple rounds fired without bore wiping etc. This turned out to be close, but no cigar, as each time the rounds were fired consecutively without wiping bore the group widened. Alternatively, just passing one lightly moistened patch down bore between shots acted like group tightener back to near 2 MOA. These moist cleaning patches were pushed through bore with Remington type orange Squeegee tip that was 1 caliber smaller than bore I.E. 38 cal. Used here. There was no leading noted. Another approx. 4 incher load was the 410660 over 61.0 grs OE 1 ½ . The 410660 Spitzer is seated out to 3.030”. It may make for good short range “Chicken Killer”. At 385 grs. wt. it was moving out bit faster than the slightly heavier slugs. No excuse, but to qualify, shooting position was seated in deck chair with X sticks not from hardened solid bench. Tying down the rifle with sand bags and such may have closed grouping. But I’ve never seen such paraphernalia allowed at formal silhouette match. Shooting was also limited by present health situation. SO pretty is as pretty does :-) It would be nice to have had the chronograph out too but alas my shooting position looked like tenderfoots camp as it was ;-) Enough info was gathered to allow filling 100 pcs. Of brass for next silhouette or Gong match. Yepee. Note there was an uplifting sign from above during tests, there was a group of SEVEN wild Turkeys working the grass at about 150 yards between the raised firing point and 200 yd Berm. Not a feather is missing, they took little notice of what was flying over head, but it was might distracting ;-)

[Kurt]

M-2 those turkeys are hard to hit anyway!

[Martini2]

Hi Kurt, this thread is about reloading but I guess except for embarrassing tally of missing that many Turkeys with 35 rounds it could have been posted in Hunting section Back to reloads. Has anyone contemplated the effect of 40-65's sotto "neck". These cases were sized with recently acquired Lyman Neck sizing die. The change from case taper to straight neck portion showed up very good. It was noted when the reported loads of OE were drop tubed and compressed the 0.060" circle wad rested right about at the afore mentioned case wall angle. The point is when loading the 40-65 with less than powder any wads or even bullet base could be loose after being sized through the smaller neck. This might change combustion characteristic as charge or whatever is pushed past the narrows VS having all the resistance further forward in cylindrical "Neck" ?? The 40-70 SS straight cases etc.. avoid this condition. I'm committed to the 40-65 as is but just happen to ponder the difference. M2

[Rowdy Rick]

M2, yes even in some partially full length re-sized cases in my 2 7/8 I have ran into this on occasion. Careful wad sizing may be critical in these. Regarding my 40-65 I do not resize the cases, just fireform and shoot, not even annealed. This may help alleviate the problem you speak of . This is with a 350 gr PP bullet. Coincidentally this is one of my two most accurate guns.
Good discussion.

Rick

[Martini2]

Rick & all 2X on the accuracy potential of the 40-65 cartridge. I must admit due to my relatively recent turn to the dark side I.E. taking up serious BP loading some of these "revelations" may be "Newby" type questions. Several decades in engineering still cause what and how questions. Actually the case volume is quite practical once a combination is arrived at that produces uniform velocities @ 1150-1250 FPS. Like most there has been past "education" on virtues of high speed in 45-70 caliber That experience in Kinetic energy was enough to make 40-65 look good I also am working with 38-55 for when I get older yet. As this thread somewhat details an efficient balance does exist for 40-65. Sorting out the many variations IS what makes this firearms sport so @$#%# addictive Thanks to this serious forum and almost 150 years of intrepid shooters we have good company solving how to flatten dem 200 meter Chickens.