Are the .44-77 BN and the .44-90 BN viable contenders in modern Creedmoor

[Distant Thunder]

Are the .44-77 BN and the .44-90 BN viable contenders in modern Creedmoor matches? Or perhaps I should ask, has anyone ever won a Creedmoor match using one of these two big bore bottleneck cartridges? And I’m not talking about mid-ranges matches, I'm talking about 800, 900 and 1000 yard paper target matches. Not to put down the long-range gong matches, which are a different animal, but paper target scores would tell more than just the number of hits on steel.

I’m betting the answer is, NO! So then comes my real question, why not?

I believe Shiloh greatly handicaps these two cartridges by offering only 19-twist barrels, though they will put other brands of barrels on their rifles as they did for me with my 17-twsit Krieger barreled .44-77.

Shiloh makes some very fine rifles, the best of the 1874s which is the model I am familiar with. There are many other actions that can be and are barreled in faster twist .44-77 BN and .44-90 BN cartridges.

I’ve been working with my .44-77 for a season and a half, both of those summers were cut short first by Covid then by personal business. The cartridge was a bit more involved to get into mostly because of brass, but very excellent brass can be had from Buffalo Arms. The brass does make it a little more expensive to get set up, but one does not take up BPTR if the idea is to get by with little expense. Once you have the brass it lasts a long time. I don’t size any of the black powder cases once they’re fireformed and I used a Lee .43 Mauser size die to prep the case for fireforming my .44-77. After that it’s just a compression die and a neck sizing die for my bore diameter paper patch bullets and they’re ready to shoot.

As for accuracy, in my experience the accuracy has been good to very good, but I haven’t yet had that show up in a match and I’m not sure why that is.

I really like this old Shiloh I had Kirk rebarrel for me and I really like the .44-77 cartridge. I will continue to shoot it in matches where the outcome is not critical to me, and I can relax and just work with the rifle and cartridge as I try to achieve match winning accuracy with it.

My .44-77 is the rifle I take out of the safe whenever I want to shoot just for the fun of shooting a BPCR and accuracy to 600 yards has been very good. I have not yet shot an entire two-day Creedmoor match with this rifle for various reasons. So I don’t yet know what it’s capable of at 1000 yards. I might be dreaming thinking winning a Creedmoor match is even possible with this cartridge, I don’t know.

That is what has brought the question I asked in the beginning of this post to mind. Can the .44-2 ¼” win a long-range match? It apparently did well in the 1870s in the 1 in 20-twist of the original Sharps rifles. I believe Remington use a 1 in 18 twist for their .44s. The 20-twist barrels would have only stabilized a bullet a little over 1.300” long and about 480 grains if it can get 1400 fps with 90 grains of powder. The .44-2 5/8 would have no trouble getting over 1400 fps with 100 grains of powder and would handle a bullet a little longer and heavier.

So just looking at the numbers it sure looks like they are up to winning. So, who has proven this to be the case? Nobody I have heard of, yet!

[Semtav]

If the 16 twist is working so well in the 45's at long range, why aren't people trying ,16 or 15 in the 44's?

[Distant Thunder]

There are people, including Kurt, that have been shooting 16-twist .44s. Now from what I have heard the straight cased .44s do well in anything from 18 to 16-twist. Not so much, it seems, with the bottleneck .44s. That's what I don't understand.

My .44-77 has shot very well out to 600 yards. It shoots as well at 220 yards as my .45-70 18-twist Hepburn does. I have won a lot of Creedmoor matches shooting my Hepburn, so 18-twist .45 can get it done. I'm not so sure that faster is better for these rifles and there is certainly more than twist rate, after a point, that is needed to win at 1000 yards. You have to have enough spin to be well stabilized out to the 1000-yard target, spinning any faster probably has tradeoffs.

A 17-twist .44 will stabilize about the same length bullet as an 18-twist .45 will, approximately 1.450" depending somewhat on velocity. That is the reason I went with a 17-twist in my .44 and I felt that a 16-twist would be too much in a 12-pound rifle if I was trying to shoot bullets over about 520 grains. A 16-twist .44 could, in theory, stabilize a bullet 1.570" long, that would be a bit heavy for my old shoulder!

Bottom line is, I don't think it's the twist rate if it's at least 1 in 18 that keeps these two cartridges out of the running. Certainly, there are fewer .44s on the line at any matches I've ever been to and that would make the percentages in favor of the .45s, but the .44s should be able to compete and pull out a win now and then.

Either way I plan to continue to work with my .44-77 and keep trying to win. If I was afraid of a challenge, I sure wouldn't have been shooting BPTR for the past 25 years.

[Nuclearcricket]

IMHO, the biggest drawbacks to the bottle neck rounds is the bad press they have gotten over the years. The lack of brass is another big drawback. The straight cases are cheap and plentiful as well as more different molds than one would care to count. I am sure anyone that makes cut rifled barrels will make one in any twist you would like. My guess is if more people would take the time to find a good load the bottle neck rounds would be more popular.
When you consider just how many different bottle neck rounds were produced during the BP era they can't be that bad. The straight cases were just a bit cheaper and easier to load so the bottle neck stuff ended up dropping out of favor.
I have played with a 44-77 some and so far it seems quite capable of getting the job done. Its just like any other cartridge you have to find out what kind of menu your rifle likes and feed it accordingly. Any quality barrel and ammo should shoot well. What happens between the shot you fired and the next one you are ready may be a determining factor. I have noticed with my rifle that it will build up a bit of fowling in the throat but if you wipe well you can eliminate that issue.
Seems that there are some out there that love them and the rest just haven't tried one yet.
Sam

[Don McDowell]

The Shiloh 44-77 can be a very good contender at Creedmoor if and only if the shooter is willing to get the long heavy bullet crap out of their nose and use a bullet who’s length is suitable for the twist
That means no more than 1.3 long. Which will still weigh 455-460 grains

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

Have you used that kind of combination in any Creedmoor matches? If so, how did it do?

[Don McDowell]

I have and it saved my bacon in the middle of a string while trying to keep beating my head against the wall with the 1.35 in. long bullet and was coming up with what was headed towards a big fat goose egg or maybe a 6. Last 4 shots were 9's and 10's. That was in one of Raton's famous notorious wind fits.
Also saw Chip Mate shoot a very good score at one of the 1000 yard matches in Phoenix with a bullet he had shortened on his head grinder.

I had planned to campaign my new 44-77 at Phoenix this year, but due to a handful of different reasons did not get a load worked up, one of the reasons is this 77 in 45-90 seemed to really turn on when I had a 1.45 bullet brought down to 1.42. Maybe when I get back from the Desert International things will come together enough that I can get some serious load testing and sight settings in that 44-77 enough to run it in a few matches this season albeit they will be mostly going matches.
The 1.35 bullet I originally tried to run in the 44-77 shoots extremely well in the Shiloh I had rebarreled with a 17 twist,and chambered to 44-90 st.I would think that in your 44-77 with the 17 twist barrel that length of bullet should run very well, a lot of my reasoning is in the 90 st. I only run 84 grs. of 1 1/2, patched and 82 grooved, which isn't that much different than what I think I saw you say you were running in the bottleneck.

[Kurt]

Jim,

I have two .44-77 and two .44-90bn. One of each has a 1/19 ROT and 1/17 ROT.
Plus the other straight walled .44's the 2.6 has a 1/17 ROT and the .44-75- .2-5/8 Ballard has a 1/16 ROT. they all shoot well.

No I have not won a Creedmoor match or the MT 1000 as well as the gong shoots. I have placed near the top but the other shooters are better than I am. It's not the BN calibers that are holding me off the top, it's me controlling the rifles.

The last Lodi match as you know I used the .44-77 with a load not tested. I was going to use my .45-2.4 but I wanted to see what the .44-77 would do at the long range and I was not disappointed with what I ended up with.

The 19 ROT Shiloh I shot at Lodi twice before pulling the barrel and had Kirk mount my 35" 1.30" round barrel on the Shiloh .44-90 BN but I will pull that barrel and put the 19 ROT .44-90 BN back on it not that the .44-2.6 does not shoot, it has put some very fine long range Gond shoot marks on the irons.
The 19 ROT .44-90 BN also has held me high at the few MT 1000 and the Q.
Below are the two matches at Lodi that I used the 19 twist and the load record I used for those two matches. The bullets I swaged that is shaped like the Gibbs and yes it's a 500 gr 1.445" and the 510 gr 1.485" long.
I swaged those bullets that heavy because I seen writing from the Creedmoor matches and they used them then. But I won't use them in my .44-77 19 twist, but I have and they stayed on the 600 yard stop sign at the Q without a problem.

On the 2013 match I lost the 900 yard target because of the mist that rolled in and I had to pull the front sight aperture out and use the whole hood just to make out the target.
I think you might remember that morning.

But yes in good hands the .44 BN's will get the job done just as well as any of the calibers.

I haven't shot the .44-90BN CPA at any matches so I won't comment on it, but the 19 twist barrel is going back on because it shot so well.

Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

All very good info in that post.

I did not mean to say gong matches don't count, they surely do, but they are often run much differently than paper matches. Gong matches are often fired with a long wait between shots while paper matches you have a shot string with not a lot of time between shots unless you're waiting on a condition for a few minutes. There is a different strategy to each, neither is easier. Putting a high number of hits on a 30" gong at 900 yards over a period of time is challenging as hell. Running a condition in Creedmoor and having 9s, 10s and Xs tells a little more precisely how many shots were closer to the center. They're just different games and different challenges.

I have shot far more long-range paper than I have long-range gongs and I can relate to the results of paper better.

I had most recently been working with a 1.350" bullet in my .44-77 at 220 yards on my home range and it shoots very well. Yes, I happened into an 82-grain load of 1 1/2 Swiss that is shooting well. That was with the cupped base mold Brooks made for me. He also made a flat base plug for that mold, but for some reason he made that in .45 caliber. It didn't fit my mold.

Because my lathe and other machines are sitting in storage waiting for winter to end so I can safely move them to my new shop I haven't done anything with the flat plug. Last week I couldn't wait any longer and chucked it up in my drill and polished the heck out of it until it fit my mold. Now I just have to get around to casting and I set the mold to 1.350" with the flat base so that's what it will be. I really like this 82-grain load. I use 83 grains in my .45-70 and that is perfect for Creedmoor.

Last fall I started setting up a 400-yard range on my brother's land and this spring I plan to use that for load development with my .44-77 and that should allow me to tighten things up considerably. There just seems to be only so much I can learn at 220 yards. I'm hoping that this flat base bullet will work better than the cupped base verson as the range increases. I think it will.

My only concern will be if the 480-grain bullet will hold up at 1000 yards and from what you're saying it will.

I have read everything I could find on Chip's efforts with his .44-77, but most of what I found seemed to be mid-range. I had not found anything about him shooting at long-range with it, so that is also encouraging results to hear.

I'm not sure why the 1.350" length seems to be a sweet spot for .44s but it does indeed, even my 17-twist likes it.

When I have told people that I shorten the bullet I use in my .45-70 Hepburn from 1.460" to 1.440" and it shoots much better they look at me like I'm nuts. That aside the bullet does shoot better, and it wins matches. That's just the facts. It depends on how fast you can push it. That same bullet was excellent in my .45-90 at 1.460" but I was pushing it at 1400 fps with 105 grains of powder. In the .45-70 with 83 grains, it's down around 1296 fps and it just needed to be shorter to have the same level of stability at the lower rpm that resulted from less velocity.

Anyway, if you get to working with your .44-77 this summer I for one would really like to know how it goes and I'll post my results with mine as well.

[Don McDowell]

Jim gong matches are fun, and they can help a person figure out a few things, but the real acid test is the target rifle match.
As you said the time between shots etc, and a hit an inch inside the edge and a center hit count the same in a gong match, but that hit an inch on the paper can tank your score in a target rifle.
That being said I am extremely proud of winning 1st place at the Dean Scoggins 1000 yard match at Alliance a couple of years back. BTW did that with the rebarreled Shiloh shooting 84 OE 1 1/2 behind that .434470 cast 15-1 and wrapped in sc 55Y.

Also at the Phoenix match in 2019 shooting that 434470 bullet ,in the 90, I hit the spotting disc in the 10 ring at 1000 twice before we lost the wind and the wheels blew off of everything for the next 4 shots and we got the wind back and shot a pinwheel x.