.44-77 hunting load questions.

[Distant Thunder]

I've been thinking about this question for awhile now and I'm not sure exactly the best way to phrase it so I get the answers I'm looking for so I have decided to just jump in and see what happens. What could possibly go wrong?

First, I don't mean to confine this question to only the .44 2 1/4, although that is my primary interest it is not necessarily the that of interest to others and I would like here from people using other cartridges as well. I realize that the bottlenecks are a different animal than the straights, but I would like any info for either style of case at least as a comparison of the two.

Second, I am only interested in using paper patch bullets so I thought the Reloading section under Paper Patch would making the better choice.

I'm not sure why but the area of black powder hunting loads with paper patch bullets does not seem to be something that is easily explored. It's almost like original black powder cartridge loading in that it seems not that much is written about it and one would have to really dig to get enough information get a true understanding of what it takes to be successful with such loads.

Since first getting my .44 2 1/4 from Shiloh 10 months ago I have worked at this idea a few times and so far I can say that accuracy is not really a problem that I can see. I suppose that depends on what is reasonable to expect in terms of accuracy and that varies from shooter to shooter. For me It would be a load that I could reliably put 5 shots or more into 6 inches at whatever my maximum hunting distance would be without cleaning the bore other than what is possible in the field.

That distance assumes a means of accurately knowing or judging the distance and using sights that would make the shot possible. Again, there are many other variables at play with the maximum distance.

I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has worked up such hunting loads. Obviously the more details of the loads shared the better, but I am also very interested in what is used for fouling control. This seems to be the more difficult part of a good hunting load if any follow-up shots are possible for whatever reason.

The question of lead hardness would also be interesting.

So to sum up my questions:

What cartridge(s) are you using?

What bullet is used? Alloy? Specifically what bullet is used. A picture or mold number?
What is the weight of the bullet? What is the diameter(s) of the bullet after patching and what paper is used?

What velocity is the load? Either chronographed or estimated is good.

Type of wad(s) used? Lube wad?

What is required for fouling control in the field?

How do you determine the range while in the field?

Any additional info that would be helpful would be appreciated as well as any comments on BPC hunting in general.

Thank you for your time.

[Kurt]

Jim,


Shooting dirty for hunting.
This is a subject I spent many years developing and illustrating that it can be done, but got a lot of rhubarb from nay sayers.
Here is an example of a 100 shot group that only 4 shots went outside a 4" group, the three shots above, one is a double at 200 yards. It can be done.
This is my hunting load I used mostly up in the UP Mich and took three Bisons with the .44-2-5/8 BN and the 2-1/4 BN .44-77 and the .45 caliber rifle.
Give me a little time to get this put together and I will answer your question.
To much going on today.

Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I knew I would hear from you! Take your time, I know it will be worth the wait.

There is a lot I have not tried yet, but so far some sort of wiping has been needed. I will want to run this to ground so I'm likely to have follow-up questions. My immediate goal would be deer here in Northern Wisconsin this fall and going forward, but I ultimately want to shoot another buffalo with a Sharps some time in the next 2 to 3 years. My first buffalo was with my .50-70 and a grease groove bullet. Yeah, it was a long time ago and the .50-70 got the job done on everything I shot with it. Now it has to be paper patch in my .44-77.

Let's just say it's on my Bucket List!

[Don McDowell]

Dual diameter bullet. Dry lubed felt wad, jojoba on the exposed patch.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I have some of those 2-D pp bullets you gave but I've been hoping to get the shooting dirty thing worked out before I use them up and I am not there yet. I am a little leery of felt wads in a bottleneck case because many years ago I pulled the necks of my .40-90 BN case with them. That's a little hard to forget! I am looking into buying some wads though.

[Kurt]

OK Jim I will make an attempt with this. I don't talk to well with my fingers, the old German does still get in the way at times.

The .45-70 used to be my primary north woods rifle for many years before I could afford a Shiloh and that was a trapdoor carbine and I used the GG bullets along side what you see in the photo, sorry about the GG you said you had no interest in but I used it and still would now if I would ever go back up in the UP MI. There is in my opinion no better hunting bullet for the black powder rifle shooting in hunting conditions. You can load and shoot as many rounds with out a jam because a fouled throat. Look at the ogive and front scraping band and the lube grooves. This is a bullet Pope made for the Ideal bullet moulds.
I call it the no chase bullet.

OK, End of the GG.

Now my primary hunting rifles and calibers are the .44-77 and .44-90 BN Shiloh's. The .44-77 is the rifle you shot at Harris.

In the dark woods up your way when a front moves in from the Lake you know it gets dark in a hurry so I use nothing but barrel sights. They are the Long Lawrence rear sight that gives me three preset ranges, 100 yds 215 with just flipping the ladder up and the slide I set at 300 and I hold off for everything in-between. I have a range finder but up in the UP I seldom get a shot past 100-150 unless I hunt the clearcuts or the power lines. I shoot 200 yards enough that I don't need a range finder for 50 + or - at those ranges.
The front sight is a reproduction of the Hartford that Steven made for me. Just a rub with my thumb over the bronze insert it shines.

The loads.

I have a couple chromo's but don't use them. I find more value putting holes through the paper to see what my loads do than working with velocities.

The bullets I use for the .44-77 and the .44-90bn are both you see in the photo. The first shot bullet is patched to bore diameter. I want this to get the best accuracy for the first shot fired. It will not chamber for the second shot. That is the bullet left of the .44-77 round. It is a bullet cast with a Brooks adjustable mould set at 485 gr .432" diameter 1.325" long and cast with 1/20 alloy.
I deep seat my hunting bullets so they don't fall out while in the pocket or belt.
For this bullet for a follow up shot I use a thin .0015" paper and I adjust the bullet by seating just the bullet in a fouled throat with out the shell and measuring it with a depth gauge and seat it .01" off that depth. I do this in both of the rifles.
The other bullet that you see in the .44-90 I had BA make when they first got into the bullet moulds when Dave and Jim called me discussing dimensions. I wanted the Metfort profile but it came close and they still offer this bullet in there line up. For this bullet I wanted it with intend of shooting in a fouled chamber because this is what I shoot mostly for hunting or busting rocks and bowling pins and it works well for this use.
That bullet is .428" diameter 1.470" long 518 grains using 1/20 alloy.
I use this bullet in the 19 ROT in both rifles and it does well at 200 with the .44-77 and it gave me honors at the MT 1000. It's not supposed to shoot in a 19 ROT but it does.

Wad stack.

This is what makes a fouled throat workable, and is what nI used for a wad stack with the 100 round group in the target above. I was a scraper wad that has a dome (concentric) and I place it flat side on the bullet base with a hard fiber wad .06" against the copper scraper wad (The Coper scraper wad is nothing new, it was used back in the 1800rds) and a lube wad under it with a milk carton wad over the powder. I adjust the lube wad so everything fits in the case neck, not below the neck. The copper wad will expand when the powder is lit and it scrapes the fouled bore from the previous shot fired. Your probably thinking UGGG copper, never seen it in the bore. The disk is only .025" thick. I use it for my swaged pure lead pistol bullets and it keeps the bore free of lead as long as I keep the velocity of the .45 ACP. I ran out of picture room so I can show how they look on a swaged bullet base.
My lube is made from a hard Tallow I make mixed with Vaseline to the softens I like just above like real butter from the fridge. Squish it between the thumb and finger it squishes out I want the lube in the bore not on the ground that looks like it was loaded. It does no good laying on the ground.
I might cup my hand over the breach and exhale slowly to put moisture in the bore if I have time or blow down the muzzle with the fingers wrapped over the muzzle blowing through my hand.

Well Jim this is my way and the best I can do explaining it.

End of long finger talk

[Kurt]

Here I did it anyway....

Forgot the type of paper,

I use mostly Southworth 100% cotton paper that ranges from 1.5 thousands to 2.6 thousands thick plus 6 other types of paper to get the diameter I need.
And I just don't see any difference in accuracy with the thickness I use or brand of manufacture.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,
You did an excellent job explaining you technique, bullets and load. Picture help a lot.
I always used a grease groove bullet in my .50-70 and could load and as many as needed, I just want to use paper patch in the .44-77 and I know it was and can be done. How is the question and you have answered that very well.

I had heard of using a copper disk before and I even remember seeing a picture, but I don't recall them being cupped quite that much. Interesting.
Getting the lube cookie to spread over the bore and not just fly out muzzle looking the same as it did when it was loaded seems to be the problem.

I will probably try as many things as I can to see what works best for me. I have found some more info and I'm reading thru that.
I almost got some felt wads that I will try, but those will get tossed out the very first time I pull a neck off one of my .44-77 cases! There not cheap.

Thank you for your help. I'll be talking to you some more I am sure.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I'm pretty sure that "Metford" bullet of yours is the same one I have been shooting in my .44-77 since late last fall. It shoots really well for me loaded for target shooting when wrapped in my 9# paper. I had to open the mold up just a bit to tighten up the groups.

I ordered that mold from BACO because it was close to Metford's design. I like it a lot.

[Don McDowell]

Jim the dry lubed felt wads from Muzzleloader originals won't pull the neck off of a bottleneck case. 1000's of them have went down range in my rifles without a single case lost.