patent 257584

[bruce moulds]

just thought some might find this interesting.
hobbs also had a patent for coating a glue covered bullet with paper pulp to make a seamlessly patched bullet.

www.google.com/patents/US257584

keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

I've often wondered how hard it would be to make one of these machines.
I have heard that one of the cigarette rolling machines work pretty well, but I haven't seen one of those in ages.

[Kurt]

Robert Brian from Shiloh has the patent of the patch rolling machine sharps used.

If you stop and think for a minute.
In the late 1860's and into the early 1870's cartridge rifles where just changing over from the muzzle loaders and those guys where just starting to figure out how to load the cartridges as well as how to patch and load this new fangled way of shooting. The guys now days that grew up shooting auto loaders and smokeless cartridge rifles and now changing over to shooting black powder rifles and casting lead bullets and starting to switch over to the PP are in that learning curve like the ODG's where. In our time we have the advantage of guys that have shot these projectiles for a lot longer time frame than the ODG's did and now days the new guys if they listen to the guys in some cases that have shot black powder cartridge rifles most of their life will find what works a lot faster. They already have gone through the learning stage the in the 20 to 60 years they have been shooting.
Guys shooting the long range matches are shooting a lot better scores and groups now days with the original design rifles of old than they did in the hay days of the Creedmoor range.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt I'm wondering if part of the better score thing now vs. then comes from difference in rules?
Then Now
rifle weight 10 lbs 15 lbs.
single trigger 3lb pull minimum set triggers and no minimum pull
no artificial support except one
armed men could apply for many types of rest allowed
exempt

1 sighter shot , 2 if the second unlimited sighters
Paid for in advance

No talking , whistling or other Constant chatter
sounds permitted on the line to
keep spotter and coach from
communicating conditions

[Kurt]

Don.

I suspect your reply has a lot to do with it for sure. Those old rules made it the game you and your rifle. That is what makes the Gong matches a tough game where first shot for score with no sighters.
The 3# trigger pull might make a diff to some shooters I don't see it on my end using my under 9# single trigger Sharps

[Don McDowell]

Kurt the gong shoots in some ways are similar with the no sighters thing, but that's about where it ends.
The old targets had center,inner and outer portions of the targets, so points were acquired, where a gong match a skip in counts just the same as dead center hit.
After shooting the High Plains Challenge last year, and talking to those that have shot the Cup, those matches are much closer to what the ODG's shot , but there's still the equipment differences. The recoil of a 10 lb rifle in 45-2.6 and a 15 lb rifle has to be enough to wear on a fella over the course of fire. And the no artificial rest thing.
I also think todays sights are heads above the older ones.
Also today's brass is so much better than what they had to deal with, and that's got to be a bonus to todays shooter.
I'm also pretty well convinced the powder and primers we have today is every bit the equal to if not better than what they had.

[Kurt]

[quote='Don McDowell' pid='8988' dateline='1405101139']
Kurt the gong shoots in some ways are similar with the no sighters thing, but that's about where it ends.
The old targets had center,inner and outer portions of the targets, so points were acquired, where a gong match a skip in counts just the same as dead center hit.
After shooting the High Plains Challenge last year, and talking to those that have shot the Cup, those matches are much closer to what the ODG's shot , but there's still the equipment differences. The recoil of a 10 lb rifle in 45-2.6 and a 15 lb rifle has to be enough to wear on a fella over the course of fire. And the no artificial rest thing.
I also think todays sights are heads above the older ones.
Also today's brass is so much better than what they had to deal with, and that's got to be a bonus to todays shooter.
I'm also pretty well convinced the powder and primers we have today is every bit the equal to if not better than what they had.


" I'm also pretty well convinced the powder and primers we have today is every bit the equal to if not better than what they had."

That is something we will most likely never know for sure.

[Don McDowell]

One hint we may have at the quality of powder and primers today.. The ease of finding a decently accurate patched bullet load that does not need wiping ,, the American team got their heads handed to them when they accepted Rigby's challenge to shoot match without wiping..

[J.B.]

All interesting entries Bruce. The ingenuity of the inventor is quite impressive. Be interesting to see the real item up close. As Don mentioned as well... a variation on the cigarette roller would have to come close also...although it wouldnt tie off the tail. Were these gadgets set up vertically or horizontally ? Probably made of brass and tooled steel and look like a Swiss watch ! After watching Bobw ..unroll and re roll a dry patched flat base bullet in front of my eyes at the Q just before his detail was to shoot.... I know I've a long way to go yet. I need a flat table.. a damp sponge.. dead quiet ..and some serious focus. All good fun though... especially when you get results.

[Frank Savage]

I have some doubts also about the powder and primers.

Powder:
No doubt that average powder of today is better than average powder those days. But something tells me that those realy good and superb powders of ODG were superior to our powders. Those days, people were not afraid of hand labor and it was relatively cheap. From bits I managed to pick up in last 15 years, it seems to me that in the ODG´s days, the wood for good powders was debarked by hand, somehow more alike skining than peeling like potato or like current machines do. This for sure leaves more sapwood there-which is good for high creosote content in properly retorted low temp (dark brown-blackish) charcoal. Also, BP was widely used, as well as its components-so no major manufacturer had an issue with a lot of wood sitting back, drying and stabilising before charring, for unusualy long period. That small batch (compared to other flow of ingredients) was just a drop. Then there could been made some exceptional charcoal we will probaby never will have again. I can´t imagine the price of hand-skinning a truckload of twigs 1/2"-5/8"x6"-8" to have 300 lbs of final charcoal made (only the core taken) for about 2000 lbs of final powder-in todays prices. And the price of the final product. If I´m not mistaken, the best powders in GB ran around 1:1. Pound for pound. And 1 GBP those days was realy a serious amount of money (a university professor had about 150-160 GBP a year, civil engineer about 130 GBP/year, a tea/wool clipper captain at his best about 180-190 BGP a year, high India civil affairs officer about 300 GBP a year IIRC).

Primers-seriously, we have in some instances mediocre primers for BP nowdays, regardless of their (usualy) superb consistency in every respect. The BP is sensitive primarily upon impact and friction, then nothing for a long time and then flame and heat. Todays primers are non-corosive etc., but as far as I know, it somehow seems that none of the compounds have the BTUs of mercury fulminate, as well as realy comparable and agressive brisancy. Todays primers are to produce a relatively long-lasting, medium-hot flame. Good for nitrocelulose, but not that much for BP, as the BP is ignited the less efective ways.
The old primers, on the other hand, had fine sand or glass grit in them to help the iniciation of mercury fulminate-and upon primer ignition, not only a bunch of flame and heat, but also a stream of red-to-white hot, sharp-edged grit rambled through the case, crushing, scratching and hammering the BP kernels all over and around. The BP was kicked in its most sensitive way-it was pressed and impacted, by external means as well as by the kernels one from other.
I tried to put a little of the mess left from glass grinding into the primer and then prime the case (with OPW of course). Hadn´t chrony at that time on hand, but the feel and sound was like night and day. Like having mediocre, heavily graphited powder on pan of filthy abused Brown-Bess and then a nice, very dry and totaly non-graphited powder in a Manton v-pan lock (well, that is maybe somehow over-exagerated, but I think not that much). The consistency was of course poor, as the grit was simply put over the priming compound around the anvil, but it was clear that right amount of grit in the priming beam makes a real diffrence.

So from this point of view, we have somehow worse components.
Just my 0,002