Sizing bullets

[Nuclearcricket]

Gentlemen, this has been a lively and educational discussion. I guess my next step is to find out if infact my as cast bullets will chamber. Due to the age of my Shiloh I shouldn't have any chambering problems. My 40-65 I don't know just how tight it is. Due to the poor accuracy it has showed I really haven't shot it much, just enough to fire form my brass.
Now to the rest of the story. I guess in essence I did come up with a solution to a problem that most likely doesn't exist. I did make and adapter that will hold a Lyman sizing die. It does work, and it will work in both my Co-Ax press as well as my Lyman press, just a real pain to get it screwed into the lyman as you have to screw it in from the inside. I also found that you end up loosing a lot of the mechanical advantage of the press but its not all that hard to squirt the bullet through the die.
Now I just wonder what surprises in accuracy lay ahead for me. I have only ever shot one bullet that was shot as cast and pan lubed, this is because it is a tapered bullet. No load development I just figures oh I will put this much powder in the case and set the bullet in and see what happens. After getting dialed in on the range, it went 10 for 10 on the pigs at 300m. That includes one shot by another fellow on the range that seemed interested in trying the rifle. I guess I can't complain about that. Granted the shots were all over the pig but they all hit and that's what really counts.
For me making the adapter was a fun project and also a bit of test of my skills and my lathe. To bore a hole .705 in diameter almost an inch and a half deep with a 3/8" boring bar and have it come out straight isn't doing too bad I guess. I know the adapter worked for the few bullets I pushed through it. I don't know how long it will last or hold up if it was used a lot. There is only about .03" of material between the thread root and the ID. I guess only time will tell and with any luck it will not be needed at all.
Thanks again.
Sam

[Gunlaker]

Sam, before taking my new Shiloh .40-65 to it's first match last year I went through three different bullet moulds and put probably 800 rounds through it. First I tried a Hoch nose pour mould and the rifle really didn't like it. Ten shot groups were probably in the 3.5" -4" range at 200m regardless of powder charge. Then I tried the 400gr BACO Money bullet. It shot some nice groups at 200m, but most were still in the 3" range. I then moved to the Saeco #740 bullet. An old design, but quite popular. It shot extremely well at 200m. I settled on 58gr of FFFg Express and it sounds like typical Internet BS, but it's shot a lot of ten shot groups at 1 to 1-1/4 MOA at 200m. The bullets are a slip fit in fireformed cases, shot as cast in 18.2:1 alloy ( I mixed that ratio up accidentally but I'm sticking with it ). The bullets fit the fireformed cases so well that there is a suction pop if you pull a bullet out. The rifle won the first match it went to. I suspect that the Money bullet would likely beat it for consistency by the ram line, but I developed the load at 200m and only shot it a handful of times at 500m. I'll try and figure that out his year.

I'm a really big believer in shooting as cast bullets with zero neck tension in fireformed cases, if your chamber dimensions all work out. I think that this rifle is a fortunate case where all of the tolerances stacked in my favor.

I hope some of that is of use getting your .40-65 working well. I couldn't be happier with mine.

Chris.

[Nuclearcricket]

My 40-65 isn't a Shiloh, its a custom barreled Browning 78. It has an 18" twist badger barrel. Sadly that is what was in flavor back when I had it put together. All in all its a very nice rifle, it has had a tang welded on and you just can't tell that it wasn't original to the action. Ron Snover had originally done work on the action. The one thing I don't like is it's a straight grip stock and my finger gets wrapped each time I pull the trigger. I have a 400 and a 350 grain molds for it that should work but in the past I had only worked with the 400 and was disappointed but I now have a pretty good idea of why. I am hoping to be working with a new 44-77 come spring. I will be using a bullet from Accurate that should with a little luck be a slip fit in the case neck. The bullet drops from the mold at .447 which I feel is the correct size. A lot will depend I guess on what size the reamer cuts the neck. Worse case is that I will have to neck size a little, if thats the case I have a bushing die that I will use for that. As for the .45 and .38 I will need to cast up some bullets and just see how they fit. One of these days I will get the other projects finished up and off of the bench and get the casting equipment set back up and drop some bullets to play with. So many things to do and so much cold weather putting the stop to the fun for a while.
Sam

[Kurt]

I haven't sized a bullet for a long time. I think if a sizing die would be made with a snug free bore before the die funnels down to the diameter you want so it enters the swage portion straight would be a benefit. but there again it would have to be made for your bullet you want to down size. Then you just as well have a custom mould made.

[Kurt]

Sam.

I been down in the mole den trimming 2.6 brass down for the .44-75 Ballard and loading rounds for blowing the case walls out to fit the chamber for the final trim for length. When I do this the cases get loaded with junk powder and odd and end primers I have as well as the bullets, nothing special just something that will blow out the cases and a lot of time I will take .446 GG bullets that wont fit my tight PP chamber and expand the case necks enough so I can seat the bullets. Loaded this way the round wont seat in the chamber so I set the sizing die enough so it sizes the case neck down enough so it chambers. This will swage the bullet shank down inside the case mouth but leaves the rest outside of the case untouched. They still group good doing this and recovered bullets I looked at had no gas cuts and lad cuts are normal with no signs of damage to the bullets.
I don't think I would full length size a round with the bullet in it, it would squeeze it down to far. Just enough sizing so it will load I don't think would hurt.

[Nuclearcricket]

As to the bullet fit in my 40, I found a round with what looks like an unsized bullet in it and it dropped in most of the way, without forcing things I am thinking the bullet is set too far out and is hitting the lands so it looks like unsized bullets will chamber.
Kurt, as to making some free-bore in a bullet sizer die, that wouldn't be hard to do, just take some time. If you get a barrel lap, and most likely you will end up with one somewhat smaller than you need, when you expand the lap you get the barrel shape (), if you work this in and out of the sizer die you will eventually get your tapered lead, it will just take some time depending on the type and grit of compound you use. A very mill would probably be better to use as you can set a positive stop easily, but a lathe will work if you put a flag on the tail stock quill and an indicator to use as a stop reference.
Sam

[bruce moulds]

I have often wondered if this might be the ideal method, but it takes some work and planning.
forst you would have to anneal the brass to an ideal condition for bpcr pressures, then firefprm it.
obtain a mould/moulds that cast to 0.002 over groove diameter, and cast some bullets.
next, obtain a neck reamer that cuts a hole the exact size of the bullets and ream the case necks.
this will give the bullet an interference fit, and although the tension is theoretically zero, there would be some.
you could possibly finger seat, but might need a die to seat the bullet in the case.
this assumes the chamber is not too loose to achieve, or the brass too thin.
in this case a chamber reamer would need to be purchased. round barrels have some advantages here.
the use of inside neck reamers can be fraught with disaster, as some are more inclined to go crooked than others. this will introduce runout.
neck turning is a better alternative to eliminate bullet runout, but often you have to turn back to where the chamber is tapering with most bpcr bullets, and some chambers taper right to the end.
in these cases fireforming will introduce a taper into th inside of the case, when parralell is preferred.
the reamed fireformed case will have about 0.001 clearance on obturation until the bullet bumps up to that size, and will spring back to an interference fit on pressure release.
this would require constant correct annealing to maintain, but case life would be until the primer pocket actually wears out, which would be virtually indefinitely.
I contacted a reamer manufacturer forster about this, and they did not even acknowledge receipt of email.
probably due to the fact that Australians are not worth 2 knobs of goat shit to this particular American manufacturer, unlike most of them who go out of their way to help us down under.
this technique would be particularly useful when using hornady 405 win brass to make 40/72 or 40/2.5 straight, as it can thicken , and this would make perfect brass.
keep safe,
bruce.

[bobw]

Easier by far to figure out how much 2 wraps of your paper adds to your bullet dia subtract the paper thickness of this off the bore dia and order the correct mold dia. in the first place.. It's got lube grooves on it you say? well then you are really screwed. bobw

[Kurt]

Oh Bob, You must have had a long cold night on that maintainer pushing snow again

Kurt

[bruce moulds]

good point bob.
keep safe,
bruce.