Something to share

[Kurt]

Well It finally warmed up here. 58 today man I was out most of the day in a T shirt.
Snow is reseeding and bullets are showing up. I found the once I was interested in and I would like to share it with you.
I was especially interested in the bullets for the .44-77, the first 6 from the left and the .45-70 Danielson prolate with the alloy and wad stack it will take to get the most out of them. The .45-70 was loaded with 74 gr of 3F OE powder..
The .44-77 bullets I patched 1-1/2 thousands under bore and I used 1/20 tin/lead alloy I had some cast so I didn't have to cast any with the 1/30 T/L I normally use with this bullet for hunting.
I used a 1/8" Rabbit fur 20X felt I like to use, it holds the soft lube very well. These bullets really fell on their face for performance. They had very slight land cuts on just one side, halve of the shank and none on the other side. They also had slight gas cuts. I think the felt absorbs to much of the bump they get on ignition to fill the grooves enough to get a good seal and full rotation when they are patched slightly under bore diameter, but they sure do a fine job for the fouling control. I have to rethink on patching then over bore and seating them a little deeper in the case to get them to chamber.
The 6th bullet had a 1/16" cork under the bullet and it did a better job engraving but not much better.
The .45-70 prolate is perfect with the alloy and wad stack. That is what I was looking for. The alloy is a mix of 20# lead and a 1#roll of 95/5 tin antimony. Just right for a heavy load of 3F OE. It held up well.
Bullet #7 is a mix of 1/19 solder/lead with a load of 83 gr of 3F OE. 1/18 would have been better.
The 700 gr .50 GG bullet cast with 1/50 tin/lead and a .023 card and a 1/16" cork did not fare well. It got a lot of nose setback and bad stripping. The paper patch did better with the same load. Not a good picture of it to show the details better.

[Don McDowell]

Interesting stuff Kurt. I'm beginning to think now, that patching under bore like that probably work alright for hunting and some midrange work, but I think we can see it's probably not going to work very well for long range precision work.

[Kurt]

Well if those .44 bullets where a softer alloy like 1/30 you would see better results. That RN ogive would stand the softer bullet and you would see deeper engraving. Even with the felt lube wads.
The card and lube plus card under the bullet would be all together different results with even 1/20 or 18 alloy patched a thousand under bore.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for that Kurt. That fourth prolate bullet sure looks better than the others. I'm surprised to see the two beside it with no engraving near the base. That is interesting for sure.

Do you think that a little heavier bullet will show better engraving than a lighter one due to greater initial resistance? It makes me wonder whether a gain twist might be the wrong way to go too.

Chris.

[Kurt]

Chris.

I have seen a lot of bullets with lighter land cuts at the base then the top behind the ogive at the beginning of the shank.
Yes I see less with the heavier bullets with a blunter nose then the prolate. Take the GG 50 that type of nose really gets pushed back even with a harder alloy. Also I see the PP what I call a wasp waist where the center of the shank is thinner then the base and nose.
It is not uncommon to see lite engraving at the base. This could also come from the tight chambers I have that will not except a GG bullet. I sort of wonder if when the charge goes off and that bullet gets bumped in the hinder that the fron portion out of the case neck expands while the case neck is holding back what is still in the case and it never gets fully upset??????????
As far as the gain twist, don't have any experience with it but this is in the works.

[bruce moulds]

kurt,
thank you for sharing this.
chris,
the fourth prolate does certainly look the best in the photos.
the 50 cal greaser makes me rest my case with bore riding noses being potential sources of lead in bpcr barrels as opposed to smokeless.
bullet no 6 from the left seems to have bumped up the most in the base area, while bullet no 11 looks to have more bumpup 1/2 way along the shank.
the latter is what I would have expected more than the former.
just goes to show the benefits of this kind of testing.
I have never really had bumpup problems when using just a 0.030 or 0.060 wad only with fixed ammo, but I have never had access to snow either.
I think that a thinner harder wad transmits the shock of the powder better than softer wads in combination with lube wads, causing a more sudden bumpup and a quicker seal in the bore.
the creedmoor shooters preferred just a thin "pasteboard" wad or even one of drafting paper, and this could be what allowed the use of the harder alloys they used.
of course this precluded shooting dirty.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Ironramrod]

Kurt, What's the weight of the Danielson prolate bullet? Thanks for a bunch of really good info.

Regards
IR

[Kurt]

IR

513 gr. cast with 1/16 T/L 515 gr cast with 1/19 with the 95/5 tin antimony solder.

Bruce.

The felt and cork definitely reduces the bump up. Yesterday I found another .50 creedmoor nosed bullet with the same alloy as the one posted but this one I had a 1/16" and a 1/8" 3/16" total and that greatly reduced the land cuts on the bore riding section

[Gunlaker]

Kurt that is an interesting thought about the case perhaps holding back some of the bump up. Maybe that's one of the reasons that Brent's chamber design works well with the 0.475" case mouth.

Recently I added a dry felt wad to my .45-90 load to see what would happen. I suspect it was a case of light engraving as accuracy went away in a hurry. My powder charge is pretty light at only 85gr of Goex Fg, but use a 20:1 535gr Money bullet with that charge.

It makes sense that a thin hard wad would be best for bump up. Perry says that in his book. I tried it in my DanT PP chambered .45-70 and accuracy wasn't great, certainly quite bit worse than using a 0.060 LDPE. In the .45-90 if I tried that trick I'd be a lead miner for a day.

Accuracy wise I think that the lube wad between thin cookies is the best in my .45-90, but it's hard to say. When I use two LDPE wads it looks pretty darn close. I don't have any idea what the bullets look like though.

Chris.

[Kurt]

Chris.

I have changed my loads over the years because of these darned snow bank shooting sessions over the years. If possible I would suggest every serious shooter to do this if possible. A balanced load is not just the amount of powder you stull in a cartridge case, it goes beyond that. A good balanced load, powder, compression, alloy, wads, primers bullet shape that works good in a .45-70 does not react the same in a .45-90 or larger calibers or smaller.
A soft cork or felt wad really has some different effects on how bullets obdurate. A alloy of 1/20 for the .45-70 might be good but using it in a .45-90 or larger really makes a mess out of the ogive.
A alloy with just a small amount of antimony added makes a very large amount of difference how the bullet reacts.
You can get by with changes better using a GG or groove diameter PP bullet then you can with a PP bullet patched at or minus to bore diameter.

Kurt